So you're saying my Bum DOES look big in this?

Comments on yesterdays post v. interesting. Such strong feelings about what people wear. And completely confirming my theory that what you wear is about a whole lot more than what you wear.

Mark writes that he and his vicar kind of played "paper scissors stone" over who should wear the collar - I love that! Puts the whole thing in its place.

I agree with the pro-collar commenters, and with AKMA 's original comments -that for some people in some contexts wearing clerical dress is exactly the right thing to do. When I was a curate I used to go to the local market place every Thursday morning, and just spend the morning wandering around the market, wearing (among other things) my clerical collar. I hardly stopped talking all morning to stall holders, shoppers, people round about. It made me "the Vicar" - which I felt ambivalent about - but it made me, and the CHurch, publicly known to people who wouldn't otherwise have connected with me/us at all.

Now I work in a college environment of about 800 people, everyone knows who I am anyway, so there's less need for that aspect of "uniform", and I only wear clericals when the occasion demands it. But I also do what Caroline does (see comments on previous post) and choose jeans or suit depending on how I need to be perceived. In conservative environments I wear a skirt or a dress.

I regret the fact, though, that clerical gear is designed to be "male", and nobody has yet done very much to redesign it as appropriately "female". It's fantastically difficult to look feminine in clericals. I don't mind looking like I'm in uniform, but "reverse drag" I find pretty trying - I don't think it sends the kind of sartorial messages we are after.  Most women in the world do not wear "tucked in" shirts, even in formal settings. But the only way to get a decent clerical shirt that's designed for women is to buy a normal woman's shirt, unpick the collar (which in itself takes a lot of nerve when you're dealing with a decent shirt) and re-stitch with the collar in. So much effort. I could write three sermons in that amount of time.

Comments

[John]

It's interesting, that point about there being no women's version of clerical dress. The thing, of course, is that "clerical" garb is really just a variant on academical dress as it was worn in the Universities several centuries ago (and still is, sometimes). And both of them were simply formal wear of the time - it's just that the styles haven't changed with the times!

So, perhaps we need to establish what appropriate "formal wear" would be for our times, cultures and contexts. (It would be crucial, IMO, to avoid simply reproducing "business" dress because that sends quite the wrong message!) There are benefits to being identifiably "clergy", but could that be achieved in other, culturally significant ways (using badges, ties, belts, necklaces etc.)? The advantage of "clerical" dress, though, is of course that it's universally recognised, which would be much more difficult with a "modern" version.

pax et bonum

[maggi]

I really had much less drastic adaptations in mind, John - there's a great deal more to the design of a good shirt than just whether it has a clerical collar attached.

A shirt for a woman would be designed not to tuck in (most of the women in the world don't tuck their shirts in - makes us look like dumplings!), with the collar sitting slightly wider of the neck (not the same thing as a larger collar), sleeves set into a deeper arm, and softer fabrics than those cheap, crispy blokey ones.
"Academical" dress was male as well, you know - they didn't let us in to academics until quite recently either.

As for necklaces, no-one can see it if you have a clerical collar on anyway, and - at least as I was taught - jewellery and make-up should be minimal or not there at all as it counts against the "uniform" principle. Although I must say that doesn't stop one or two of my male colleagues with their lipstick and eyeliner... ;)

[John]

I understand about male/female differences in clothes - I was reacting more to your comment that "It's fantastically difficult to look feminine in clericals...I don't think it sends the kind of sartorial messages we are after". My thought was that, given clerical dress is essentially male, how do we achieve female-based clerical dress? Is there more to it than simply stitching a dog collar onto a nice blouse?

pax et bonum

[dave paisley]

I sense a major fashion opportunity... Lots of our female youth are fashion-designery by nature, so maybe I'll see if I can get some of them to tackle the project.

Is there a way to project a faux-collary look onto female dress? Hmmm.

[maggi]

excellent, Dave - if you could also find some business minded production company to make them, that would be well worth seeing. Although if your young friends need a guinea pig...

[dave paisley]

Ha, great minds think alike.

I posted the idea up in a couple of places where our youth will read it, and mentioned at the end that this could be a very interesting niche market business opportunity (maybe like Hugh's English Cut venture on a smaller and cheaper scale... http://www.englishcut.com/)

[dave paisley]

Addendum:

Definition of a *real* niche market:
Evangelical female priest attire.

[Kristofer]

Maybe I should start posting about collars on my christian apparel blog. Haven't thought about it before but that's also christian clothing.

[Dave]

Well, here come some untidy musings from a Methodist minister who was once described as 'not so much low church, more like subterranean'. Perhaps we've treated clergy attire wrongly as a univalent sign when really it's a multivalent (maybe even ambivalent) symbol. To one, it is the helpful symbol of a uniform, and someone wanting an opportunity to talk about spiritual matters approaches (I resisted saying 'collars') someone in a clerical shirt. To another, the association with uniform is as unhelpful as the association with power, as often in pomo culture (notwithstanding pomo desires for mystery).

I've found that a dog collar opens certain doors, but maybe less so than it used to when I began in ministry thirteen years ago. On the other hand, I remember visiting a young couple who had lost their toddler to a brain tumour. The undertaker had contacted me, asking to conduct the funeral. When I arrived, I said, 'I'm sorry I'm not in my dog collar tonight: my clerical shirts are in the wash.' At the end of the evening they told me they were relieved I had come dressed like them. They were afraid of what it would mean to meet 'the priest'. So maybe that was a bit of accidental incarnation.

While I see that wearing the attire does make certain people feel they can approach us, I wonder what that also says about other 'non-ordained' Christians in the same arena. Is their faith invisible to their hurting friends? Is it all too visible but judgmental? Or has the institutional church disempowered them because they aren't 'Revs'?

[Jennifer]

Maggi

Thank you for this thread: I discovered it in GOOGLING for "women's clerical shirts" and "fashionable women's clerical shirts." I'm sick of the bad fashion. I guess I'll need to resort to unpicking collars for a while.

Besides the shirt-tucking factor (thank you for the dumpling description!) and the cheap look of most (women's) clerical shirts is the hideous insistence in women's clergy wear (in the US, anyway) on PLEATS. So I'm stuck with oversized men's shirts.

Have any fashion revolutions happened in clergy wear in the UK since you posted this? I intend to lobby American religious wear institutions beginning tomorrow.

[Kim]

I bumped into this line of conversation as I was wandering looking for other women's clergy shirt options, and/or designer information that I could 'tap' and challenge them to step up to this 'untapped' market. Thanks for the conversation...and I will keep ya'll posted if I find anything.

[Andrew]

I bumped into this thread while doing research on market trends and needs in clergy apparel. Our company recently gathered a focus group of women who are dissatisfied with the current paradigm. In the spirit of contributing to the discussion, I thought I'd post a link to see whether or not we're on track with our latest offering: http://www.augsburgfortress.org/lydia

If you're not interested in visiting the link, we've basically brought the fit in from the traditional "oversized" look and removed the pleats. They're 100% cotton.

Unfortunately, we're only able to distribute these in the US and Canada. We also haven't yet developed a full-collar neckband option...so there is yet work to be done. Thanks, and I like the cool blog. This is exactly the kind of discussion that developers should be looking for - it's incredibly useful to hear what people really want. If there are things we're missing, I'd love to listen!

[Hannah]

Hello, as with many above, I stumbled into this when looking for a tonsure neck clerical shirt/blouse.

I have found that J & M sewing provide a very good range of women's shirts designed to be worn outside (ie not tucked in). They made my year by ringing up to say that according to their measurements I had ordered a size that would be too big and they would make a shirt in a smaller size with a bit extra around the backside. The styles they do include some more fitted shirts, and they will make them out of whatever fabric you want. I think some of the other clerical tailors also provide a similar service, but I haven't tried them.

They don't do tonsure neck shirts yet, so I am still looking for someone who makes those for women.

[Steve]

Hello,

Our company, FA Dumont Church Supplies in Folkestone, Kent began importing from the USA clerical blouses produced by RJ Toomey. Toomey shirts are certainly the most popular brand for male shirts in the USA and they have now expanded their line in female attire. They produce both a Neckband & Tab Collar blouse to be worn tucked in or out. We have been selling these with great success for the last year now. The design of their shirts appear to answer some of the issues posted here. A full description with pictures can be found on our website at http://www.fadumont.co.uk/acatalog/Clerical_Blouses.html

I hope this helps.

[Elizabeth Bakalyar]

I'm a first-year seminary student in Chicago, and I've got to say I'm not looking forward to having to wear a clerical collar -- not because I have any issue with the collar, but because of the style. Yeah, yeah, vanity and all that -- but there's a difference between caring about not looking like a hideous frump and being overly concerned with looks.

Come on, guys, has anyone ever heard of darts??? How can it be this difficult? (Or does seminary really just make us into androgynous beings?)

Thanks, Maggi, for having this discussion. I have to find a clerical shirt soon, and I think I'll probably be doing the collar-picking you described. =)

[Christine D.]

I have to say, I agree with the advice about the RJ Toomey shirts. They are wonderful. The tab collar version does not have pleats, it actually looks decent untucked (not like you forgot to finish getting dressed) and is comfortable.

They do really need to make a neck band version without pleats though because right now their neckband shirt (while seniors seem to love it) makes me think of those old baby blue shirts worn under tuxedos in the 60's. Scary.

The Lydia shirt are another option although, and I hope the makers are still watching, they could use some work on the untucked problem.

Look into other women's shirts and the hem lines on untucked shirts. You are on the right track, don't stop while you are ahead!

Thanks for this thread, I'm glad to have stumbled upon it.

[Jane R]

Has any one tried shirts from "casual priest" in Stockholm? They look good in the pictures...

http://www.mariasjodin.com/en/priest.asp

[soon to be ordained]

I´ve bought three tops from Maria Sjödin. I feel comfortable and well dressed in her clothes. They are feminine, but not revealing, and I know that I will prefer her clothes on behalf of traditional clergy shirts. They are expensive, but worth every penny.

[kirsten r-s]

hi,
I've has quite a few things made for me by an Asian dressmaker. my clerical shirts are kind of indian style easy to wear long/short length and the look feminine and have a keyhole slit at the front. other ones I have made myself by adapting patterns. it is all a bit hit and miss though.